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June 21, 2013
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How to be a more reputable whiner

Journal Entry: Fri Jun 21, 2013, 11:55 AM



Hi guys! I'm still out of town and away from my computer, but I've got a bit of internet connectivity going on so I figured I'd write a journal.

During this past week, I've noticed that two things happened that have captured my interest: News regarding the XBone, and dA's new beta system for writing comments. Both of these have one thing in common: A lot of people whined or are whining about it. 

Now if you didn't know, the XBone is Microsoft's new console that was announced at e3 (or an earlier games conference, I forgot which) that got a SHIT-TON of negative feedback since it didn't have backwards compatibility, it required a fee to be payed if you wanted to share or lend games with a friend, it required you to be connected to the internet at least once every 24 hours (which would be problematic for those who have limited access to the internet), and it required the kinect, which could theoretically be used in a 1984-esque "Big Brother" way of spying on you. 

Needless to say, very few people were actually pleased with this. Lots of people complained, and just a few days ago, Microsoft changed the XBone to comply to these complaints. 

Shifting gears to the new dA commenting system in Beta testing, basically dA wants to change the comments to work with using Sta.sh Writer. Some of the features that come with it are pretty cool (you can use thumbnails in comments and you can also use the full version of Muro in areas that allow it) but it's rather buggy and there are some aspects of this feature that a lot of people (including myself, for some of them) don't like. You can read more about it here.

So of course, people started complaining. The comments right now seem fairly positive for the most part, but when the journal was first posted, I saw a lot of "THIS IS SHIT, DA. CHANGE IT BACK BECAUSE FUCK YOU" comments. 

This isn't the only time this has happened. Almost every time dA has changed a feature, there have ALWAYS been people who voiced their displeasure at the change. The reasons for their displeasure usually vary widely, whether it's because it causes lag, it leaves something open for exploitation, or just because it was different.

Anyway, this is getting to be longer than I expected, but my point is that there are two ways of voicing your complaints: There's a way that will get people to take you seriously, and there's a way that will make people look at your comment and think "oh look, it's another whiner."

Clearly, nobody wants to be a whiner.

I've noticed that whenever I'm reading comments on a change log, I always pay more attention to the people who have more to say. And by "more to say," I don't mean more words-- I mean more substance. If a person is able to clearly describe what it is that bothers them and uses ethos, pathos, and logos to do so, that person is more likely to be taken seriously.

On the other hand, if a person is only able to say "THIS IS HORRIBLE. YOU ARE HORRIBLE TOO AND THIS CHANGE IS A PILE OF SHIT. IT IF AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT" to voice their complaints, it's MUCH easier to simply dismiss them as being one of "those" people who complain for the sake of complaining. Or, to put it into a more visual sense:


So how can you get people to take your complaints more seriously? Simple. Do less screaming and more reasoning. People often forget that the magical force behind creating the new features on dA (or any medium for that matter) is a bunch of people, like you and me. You wouldn't go to someone's deviation, find a thing you don't like about it, then tell them it's a pile of shit and that they should go die, would you? (well, some people would, but that's another story.) 

Instead, treat your comments like a well-structured critique: Start by finding something you LIKE about it and acknowledge that (and if you honest-to-goodness cannot, then skip that part), then state what you think could use some work. After that, suggest what they can do to fix it, and not just some half-assed comment like "make it better." Put some thought into it; remember that they're only human and they make mistakes like we do.

TL;DR: Your complaints are more likely to be taken seriously if you're able to actually put more thought into your writing. "THIS IS SHITTY AND FUCK YOU" comments will just make you look like an idiot.




medli20 awaaaaaaaayyyyyy! *whoosh*
Add a Comment:
 
:iconcrappyblueluigi:
CrappyBlueLuigi Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
THANK YOU
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Not a problem! ;)
Reply
:iconshiftycheesecake:
ShiftyCheesecake Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I work at gamestop and it makes me really sad when people come in complaining about the X1. I mean, I wasn't happy about it either, but there is tons of cool things that the X1 is bringing. There is tons of missinformation being spread on the internet, and it makes me frustrated when everyone reads everything they find on the internet, because it's not always true.
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2013  Student Digital Artist
I'll admit, I'm not 100% up-to-date on the XB1, but the articles and posts I've read concerning it did seem to come from what appeared to be reputable sources. I could be wrong, though.

Still, my point in writing this journal wasn't to talk about the XB1; it was to illustrate how change can occur if there is enough negative feedback, but well-constructed critique is more likely to generate change than empty whining. 
Reply
:iconshiftycheesecake:
ShiftyCheesecake Featured By Owner Jun 23, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
oh, I know :) haha I was just making a statement I guess haha
Reply
:icondelet-ed:
Delet-ed Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013
Personally I'm tired of them adding new features when they're not even focusing on the crap we've suggested. What about the ability to make a profit from our points, without people commissioning us? I never said I was against the 20% crap, but when they decide to punish those that want to make a profit off of their points, then i think something is backward. If you're making 20% of a profit off of all point exchanges, then frik'n allow us to do it.

Personally comments don't need to be changed right now. There's other things to focus on.
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
By the way, I saw that you're taking a hiatus. I sincerely hope things are going well for you! Don't stress yourself out too much, and come back when you're good and ready, okay? Try not to let people into pressuring you to come back before you feel comfortable.

Take care. :hug:
Reply
Hidden by Owner
:icondelet-ed:
Delet-ed Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2013
Yeah, I am. Pretty much for the reason I stated above. Just annoyed with DA and their policies. Since I can't do crap about it, I'm going to spend all my points and leave.

I wanted to commission you however, before I left. I know you're full so I'll just wait.
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 23, 2013  Student Digital Artist
That's a shame; I hope you'll find a website that better fits what you're looking for! 
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
This can be a bit tricky since I can see both sides to the argument about equally as well. As you've stated, this is a thing that has been requested for quite a long time now, so the community is bound to get a little impatient. You've already listed the community's reasons for their side of the argument pretty eloquently, so I won't go much further into that to avoid reundancy.

However, I also see reasons as to why this hasn't been implemented yet as well:

:bulletred: Points were originally implemented as online currency to make the task of purchasing dA merchandise, prints, and subscriptions online easier for those who didn't have access to Paypal or debit/credit cards. They could offer point commissions to those who did have access to such things in order to save up for the things that they themselves wanted to purchase. As such, points were treated more like gift cards rather than a currency with an actual monetary value, since the staff wanted people to spend money on things that would put money into their pockets. You rarely see retail stores offer cash-back on their gift cards, so the same reasoning lies behind points.

:bulletred: I can sort of see why the staff would be reluctant to let people rack up a bunch of points through llama trading, then cash it all out once they've accumulated enough without putting any money into the system. There was also a fad of people offering falsely-generated pageviews for points a while back, which could have also led to this sentiment. People were racking up thousands and thousands of points with little to no effort, and allowing these people to cash it all out would have been rather scandalous.

:bulletred: Just because these new features are just being released now does not mean that they just recently came up with the idea of these features. They could have been in planning for years, but we wouldn't know that. There's no evidence that this IS the case, either, but I've seen a few other websites that operated in this fashion, so the same thing may be happening on dA.

All that being said, I don't think I can really take sides either way. All I know is that if people want to be heard, they're more likely to be taken seriously with an intelligently-written comment rather than "UGGGHHH I HATE THIS CHANGE IT BACK NOW" comment. What new features they are based around is irrelevant.
Reply
:icondelet-ed:
Delet-ed Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2013
Hm...that makes sense.

But they shut down their shop, people are still buying prints, and subscriptions are becoming unnecessary when you can't even make a profit off the crap you currently have. Now people are just accepting paypal. I wonder why...

What pissed me off was that they knew what they were doing. They knew people wouldn't use points unless they were compensated for it. Since DA doesn't want their users to make all the money, they add a 20% tax. Then they say, oh people are using it for this reason, let's take away their frik'n Premium abilities.

I just don't see how this is profitable when a lot of these users either leave or just use it on someone that charges pennies. So it's like this cycle of abuse. There's a limit for those that want to charge in points, then there's a tax, then there's a waiting period,"oh but even though you purchased all this crap and only a few of you are using it, let's add something else that makes you even more reluctant to use this widget."

It's just difficult when you've earned points fairly and instead of DA allowing you to plead your case, meaning explaining how you won them, showing proof, etc, then depending on that, saying how much you can use for your own profit, they just say no.

Plus, how is this different from giveaways? People just know how to pay them so they send you to the widget, but it's still the same as llama trading. You don't earn it from actually trying. It's luck.

Obviously I'm speaking from experience, but that has made me dislike this site. I feel as though they don't have their users' best interest at heart.

Oh and I'm tired of whiners too. They just complain but don't leave. If you have a problem, then leave the site. It's like your complaining about your mom wanting to control your life, but you're too dependent to move out. It's like, shut up.
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 23, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Eeeehhh yeah, I really can't say that I can take sides either way. I'm pretty content with the way things currently are, but there are improvements that can be made as well. (20% is a ridiculously high cut of profits from the commission widget, and I think that's pretty bogus, for example.) The whole commissions widget deal does show progress, though, since converting points to currency was previously impossible. 

I've personally never viewed points as anything more than dA's equivalent of Gaia gold, so I just can't seem to get all that worked up about it. In my head at least, point commissions (and ergo points) led to buying subscriptions and merchandise, while paypal commissions led to buying useful things like lunch and textbooks. The two never really crossed realms to me. 

I feel like it would be difficult to be in a big decision-making position at dA because it would just be impossible to please everyone. They are a company so they have to make money somehow, but in order to support themselves, they also have to make sure everyone is happy. With so many people using Adblock, they have to give people more reasons to spend money on the site in order to compensate for the loss of ad revenue. Two solutions are points (which we've already gone into great detail discussing) and subscriptions. 

In the case of losing premium benefits, I feel like a lot of deliberation has to go behind that sort of thing. As time goes on, features that were once premium-only become somewhat obsolete and become released for everyone to use. I remember when viewing thumbnails of your deviantwatch messages was a premium-only feature; I'm really glad everyone has access to that now. To counter-act this, they release new features, but they have to decide whether it's premium or available for everyone to use. If it's released as a premium-only feature, there are a lot of people who accuse dA of only paying attention to people who pay money on the site. On the other hand, if they release a new feature and make it free, there is less incentive for people to purchase a premium membership, which annoys people who already have one.

It's a tricky situation and very few people walk away 100% pleased from it.

Eek, sorry for the lengthy post; that was much longer than I expected o_o;
Reply
:iconanimeloveofthegods:
AnimeLoveoftheGods Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013
CURSE YOU FOR BEING A REASONABLE PERSON!...









:icontrollfaceplz:
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
:iconiseewhatyoudidthere:
Reply
:iconangelicdirt:
AngelicDirt Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
I just figured that I'd wait and see how bad it is before I start complaining. You know, like a reasonable person. : P
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Good call, lol. :XD:
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Also if anyone wants to see what I like and dislike about the new comments, here you go: comments.deviantart.com/1/3791... 

(also links are a bit wonky as a result, but this is a confirmed bug)
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist

HOLY SHIT THAT DRAWING TURNED OUT NEEDLESSLY HUGE

...I miss my tablet :c
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Scratch that, links are fine, but it won't show up as [link] by default anymore.
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Also also also

Stop being so redundant, medli >:U
Reply
:iconpankakecarnivor:
PankakeCarnivor Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student
I haven't even noticed the change, but then again I don't really use the stash, haha. I thought you made a point, though...you're less likely to get anywhere by just being simply rude. Actually write out your complaint and put the facts behind it. :)
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
It's only visible to Beta testers at the moment, so you won't see it until you decide to become a Beta tester or it's released to the public. :) 

Yes, this! though it seems that a lot of people don't see it that way.
Reply
:iconpankakecarnivor:
PankakeCarnivor Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student
Oh! Thanks for explaining that to me...I kept wondering what on earth it was:)

Yeah, I know. I guess sometimes people let their tempers guess the best of them.
Reply
:iconindi-dere:
indi-dere Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I actually like the new stash comment writer thingy. It's fairly useful and when the bugs are fixed, I think it'd be great! I really can't see why people would say it's so bad....
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
I like it, too! People are just reluctant to change, I think. I remember when the current version of dA's layout was released-- SO MUCH HATE, lol.
Reply
:iconindi-dere:
indi-dere Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Really, though...you can add so much to your comments! Even use community emotes!  
Even just images off of dA in general. It's brilliant and I love commenting on stuff now.

We can even
  • make bullets
  • have neat lists
  • have pretty links
I have no clue why people are complaining. Sure the mobile site can be really buggy with it, but that can be fixed, right? 
But whiners are whiners and this is why we can't have nice things.
:shnuggle: 
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Woah, that is way cool! How did you do the bullets thing? Also, do you know how to make prettier links? All mine end up looking like this: comments.deviantart.com/1/3791...

I guess it's not supposed to be available on the mobile site, so that's currently a bug-in-fixing.
Reply
:iconindi-dere:
indi-dere Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Ya'know how on the bottom it says like "Add Media"? Click it and the whole stash writer thing pops up. On the top is the bold italics and underline. Right next to that is the bulleted lists.
  • it's so fucking fabulous
  • i repeat
  • fabulous.
Then when you're done making the list, you click the list button again and you can type normally.

Also on the top tab is "Link" 'ya click it and add the link and title. Like so: My dA
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
OH!! I didn't even see the top bar thing! I was looking for it at the right, lol xD

Thanks; that's really helpful! I can see a lot of potential for this in the future :) 
Reply
:iconindi-dere:
indi-dere Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
It's super awesome >w<
Reply
:iconbundleofstring:
bundleofstring Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013
"are you kidding me? This journal is pointless!" ~random whiner

Yea, those kinds of comments are very displeasing. I saw a post on the new comment feature but I didn't read it since I don't actively use the stash, but it sounds pretty cool.

As for the xbox one, it's nice to know that they listened to the strong feedbacks, but I feel that now it's no different from 360 except for better graphics. People are pretty difficult when it comes to change, and I feel it'd be a better idea to have some feedback on features such as the new console before it's even developed... I mean, didn't anyone point out that consumers might be creeped out by the idea of being observed?
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
lol I see what you did there. :eyes:

It does seem like a pretty cool feature overall, but it still has some kinks to work out. Hopefully they'll fix all the bugs soon ;)

I'm glad Microsoft listened, too. And yeah, it does seem like it's just a souped-up version of the 360, but then again, aren't a lot of next-gen consoles like that? I guess they still have the "HOLY SHIT, IT'S TV ON YOUR CONSOLE" angle to work from. But I agree; they should definitely listen to feedback from people as they develop their new console if they aren't already doing that.
Reply
:iconzippydsmlee:
ZippyDSMlee Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013
Well the Xbone also had a bunch of no good DRM. Some of which has been removed the Kinetic is simply not important to me, you can bury it in a blanket or something. Lack of BWC is killing me so It and the PS4 I may get when they fall under 200 a pop.
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
DRM is fine if it's done in moderation, but when it gets to the point where it hinders the legit consumers more than it does to hinder pirates, it gets to be a problem. Lack of BWC kills everyone, including the games companies themselves, I think. Consoles are often released without very many good titles in their opening lineup, so consumers would be less willing to purchase them. I don't see why they're so reluctant to include BWC in their new consoles...
Reply
:iconzippydsmlee:
ZippyDSMlee Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013
I dunno BWC just allows past play if you have the disc handy. Rather you can sell the older games that much more easily as digital content. Their ways of thinking are far to shallow.
Reply
:iconshadowlord90:
Shadowlord90 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013
What's the problem? Nostalgic Critic put it best in his review of the new Looney Tunes cartoon.

NC: And I think we know how "MOST" people respond to change nowadays.
Him as a Fanboy: I DON'T WANT CHANGE, I DON'T WANT CHANGE!! EVERYTHING HAS TO STAY THE SAME!!
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Truefax! Honestly when people respond like that, it makes me wonder how they think their comments will be taken seriously.
Reply
:iconshadowlord90:
Shadowlord90 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013
Well, I accept change unless it's clearly hindering the process, like the XBox One was. If Microsoft claims to be "fixing" it, we'll all wait to see just how much they fix it.

Honestly though; I haven't even NOTICED deviantart's new comment system. What did they change? Also, most of the changes made to deviantart are actually for the better. I think the part people get up in arms about is that the website is usually taken down for the updates; but it's a required evil.

Honestly; the only change I really hate right now is the new Goole+ change to youtube. Being logged into Google isn't strange for youtube, but needed to make a google plus account and expecting to use that to adjust things for youtube is just weird. I like being able to read my comments without having two tabs open.
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
I guess time will tell on that front. :)

It's currently in Beta testing, so non-Beta members won't see it until it's released officially. I've linked to a journal that explains the changes in more depth, so take a look at that if you're interested. :)

Wait, did they really change it so you have to be logged into Google+? When did this happen? :o I haven't been able to access YouTube at all this week so I'm a bit blind to those matters. 
Reply
:iconshadowlord90:
Shadowlord90 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013
You don't have to be logged into google+, but many of youtube's commands are now limited to Google+, I had to make an account there when I logged in after the update, it was quite annoying. I know google is trying to push the Google+ thing; but I feel this one hindered the enjoyment of youtube.

That's the thing; we don't mind change, as long as it helps us accomplish our goals easier; not hinder us.
Reply
:iconmedli20:
medli20 Featured By Owner Jun 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
Oof yeah, that does sound annoying. I don't use YouTube that much, though, so hopefully I won't be too affected by it lol.
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